Latitude regenerative real estate
Welcome to episode 070 of the Green Healthy Places podcast in which we discuss the themes of wellbeing and sustainability in real estate and hospitality.
Today I’m in the US talking to Neal Collins, Co-Founder and CEO of Latitude Regenerative Real Estate, a holistic real estate business based around the five key concepts of health and wellness; sustainability; community; ecology and spirit.
This conversation goes a little differently and in fact weighs in at double the usual running time, effectively because Neal and I decided to go toe-to-toe, interviewing each other and publishing the results on both of our podcasts.
So you’ll hear much of of me than normal but you’ll also hear about his journey from non-profits to real estate broker and on into the world of regenerative real estate, we look at wellness real estate, healthy buildings, traditional wisdom, social justice and sustainability rather than one at the expense of the other, why we shouldn’t neglect community values and also the role of ESG funds in the property sector today.
Here we go, here’s Neal Collins from Latitude.
Neal Collins
Latitude
Matt, this is a real treat. This is the first time at least on the Regenerative Real Estate podcast that we've had a simultaneous podcast go out.
So what's your background? How did you get into green real estate and wellness real estate industry?
Matt Morley
Yeah, well, first of all, great to be here. I think these transatlantic conversations can bring an extra layer of depth to what we both do.
I think there's slightly different perspectives from pure geography and also exposure to different markets and clearly slightly different angles within what is broadly speaking the same industry- the real estate business.
I spent the first five years of my career working for a consultancy that specialized in hotel brands and residential real estate developments.
So we were very much about the initial brand strategy for hotels and resorts, branded residences, brand standard documents, and really getting under the skin of different luxury hotel and resort brands.
That then slowly evolved into a wider real estate development focus, only slightly later did the shift come to sustainable development for me.
Mixed-use real estate development
From there, I spent almost 10 years in-house with a real estate developer (Porto Montenegro), building a mixed-use real estate development in Europe on the Mediterranean coast.
That was a combination of the marina, land side residential, commercial spaces. I was essentially a Creative Director character, working alongside the architects, construction teams, operations and marketing in developing micro businesses within the wider context of this village development.
So we basically built a town over a decade or so, it was a deep commitment to the positive regenerative effects of redeveloping a brownfield site for future generations. And there is nothing like working in-house for a fast paced developer to really get you up to speed on the realities of how to do these projects.
Sustainability + wellbeing in real estate
There was then this passion for well being on one side and sustainability on the other for me that just wasn't being nourished by that developer experience, we were able to create incredible change but there wasn't really a well being strategy in place there for example, nor were they doing much by way of sustainability in that new built environment.
That was when I setup by myself. So adding in these additional pieces around sustainability and wellness and finding that niche, which is working as a consultant alongside developers, resort and hotel brands, now looking from the outside in, trying to deliver services in a way that keeps it lean and responds to their requirements.
What about yourself Neal, what was your path into the world of regenerative real estate?
Regenerative real estate
Latitude
My background was early on in the non-profit sector, working for a charity out of the UK, where we were doing whale shark research in the Maldives. And using that research to help inform marine protected areas, and climate change adaptation policies.
I loved every minute of it, especially getting to swim in the ocean every day. And that's where I really became really fascinated around community development and in how do communities come together to create resilience.
I kept noticing that all the power dynamics, especially in a place like the Maldives was concentrated in the hands of the developers. It was quite lopsided. I ended up coming back to the United States thinking I was going to get a degree and then go back and work in that arena.
I became interested in real estate. And like you ended up getting on, essentially, as a consultant helping to build large mixed use projects. These are waterfront projects that you're creating 17 city blocks, and you know, the buildings are $50 million - $300 million. That was a scale that didn't resonate with me long- term.
I wanted to be more in control of the project. That's when we decided to look at do we invest in real estate and create the kinds of homes and habitats that we believe in? We got really good and proficient at working with off-market properties. And figuring out the finance , which led to managing a portfolio.
From there we went down this interesting path towards the service sector, managing other people's properties. We put our heads down and started to grind for several years, and about six years later, woke up with a fairly sizable property management company.
We had started to help our clients buy, sell and trade property. We had gained about twenty real estate agents. And it coincided with a time that our elders came down with terminal diagnoses around cancer, another one had ALS, a couple had cancer.
Whenever you're running something that you built, that gives you no joy and actually sucks your energy and you have a family crisis going on.
We went down this rabbit hole of realizing that, you know, it's the materials that we're using to build with that really make the difference. We then shut everything down to figure out how to bring sustainability and wellness into our work.
In 2019 sustainability and real estate was much more focused in the United States around energy efficiency, electric vehicles, electrification, solar panels, and all amazing things. But it was not scratching the surface around community, ecology, health and wellness or spirit of place, so that reciprocity that we can all have with life-giving habitats.
That's when we realized it was about regeneration, and our domain is real estate.
Transforming lives with a regenerative approach
Matt Morley
And how clearly defined was the product and service proposition when you first jumped into that corner of the real estate industry? Was it a case of understanding a market opportunity, understanding your own capacities, and your team resources, the expertise to fill that gap?
Latitude
Yeah, I would say our journey is like that of a braided river. You know, you can see where you want to go, it's almost palpable in my mind, what kind of environments the industry needs to be creating. Not only single family homes, but we're talking apartment buildings and flats. We're talking commercial spaces, schools.
I've really enjoyed sitting down at the kitchen table with people and trying to pull out from them their vision, needs, resources, financing and so on.
Our playbook has really been, how do we go find those other partners with aligned values? How do we create that tribe and ecosystem. How do we work with clients to create habitats that we know are critically needed, and to create that infrastructure right now?
The regenerative real estate podcast was a method of inquiry to find these real estate professionals like yourself. We've really built off that as a real estate agent. So the buy and the sell, yes, but what does it look like to help people transform?
You are somebody that went down the commercial route, it sounds like you're working with larger real estate developments, gyms, spas, offices. How did that come about?
Connecting nature, fitness and interior design
Matt Morley
I remember very clearly a conversation with my then CEO saying, look, I've got this idea to create a sustainable gym brand, like a nature-inspired version of CrossFit. Nobody's doing it. Nobody's talking about the benefits of connecting nature, health and fitness within a movement space.
In other words, it all began with something that really doesn't resemble where I am today. I went from high-level strategic work in mixed-use real estate development, creating a tourism destination effectively, to the very opposite end of the spectrum with a niche business combining elements of sustainability and wellbeing in a concentrated space of circa 300m2 within the real estate industry.
As I was already creating micro businesses within the mixed use development, it was a relatively simple transition, except that I came at it as if I was creating my own product (a multi-site gym brand), in fact where it ended up was a service - consulting.
Rather than trying to create a business that required me being a general manager day to day on the ground, customer facing, at some point I got a call from a business owner in Calgary, Canada saying he liked my concept and wanted me to replicate it for him in his health centre. That was a turning point.
For me, as an entrepreneur, it’s all about listening to the market and taking the hints when they are thrown your way. They are literally gold dust, that one led to a huge pivot away from an ‘owner operator’ business model to a service-based model providing expertise and advisory services, eventually full interior design services, which is a profitable space to be in now.
Matt Morley
biophilic design consultancy in real estate industry
Another pivot came when I was asked if I could consult on an office project in Switzerland on biophilic design. Nothing to do with fitness at all of course, but exactly the same values and principles. That assignment helped me give birth to the second business, Biofilico, another transformative journey that saw me harnessing potential from healthy buildings and wellness interior design.
Just through content based marketing, what I was up to started to get through to the people I needed to be talking to. The cycle is repeating itself now with prospects from the world of hotels, resorts and residential real estate asking for sustainability advisory, biophilic design consulting and gym design all in one!
Green Healthy Places is a pure play advisory business, no creative involved at all, it is the brains of the emerging little cluster of businesses, we could say.
Many people ask, what's the best way in to do what you do? I don't know how you see this but I'm not sure there is one single route in. You want to be a lawyer you study law. You want to be a doctor you go to med school.
To do what we do in the space, I think the interesting piece is that there are just any number of routes in, you can be a civil engineer, architect , real estate agent or interior designer, it’s all good, you can still find your niche and then recruit talent to fill in the resource gaps.
Just like Latitude, you’ve also created that niche. So in terms of that background element, if you were then looking back out, and seeing how people could potentially get into the industry today, what would be your what recommendations for the next generation?
Finding purpose and meaning in the real estate business
Latitude
Yeah, I think there's something in your story that that I really identify with, and I hope that people can look internally to say, if, if you get a call, and they're saying, Matt, or Neil or Sarah, can you do this for me, like you're putting this out, but you know, we're looking for something a little bit different, but similar.
If you get really excited about that gap, that you're like, I'm not exactly sure how I'm going to do that. But I know that I can deliver, and I'm up for the challenge. That is a sign of an amazing entrepreneur. And right now, the playbook that we're going on, is 'follow our passion and follow that overarching purpose and realize that we have enough of a industry understanding of how construction works, how consulting works, how finance works, how transactions work, that we can start to break apart those different models and combine things to see if they work.
How do we create interdependence with other people in this space? The real estate agent will not even be opening doors in the future, there will be locked boxes for that, there already are. And shuffling paperwork between a buyer and a seller is going to go digital too so eventually we just won't be needed.
Most likely marketplaces will be open-ended as well. Similar to what I've seen in Scandinavia, where there is a price, there's an open bid process, and people are just bidding into it. So the US based market of real estate agents, which is 1.5 million of us, sees them all running around saying the same thing - “let me help you sell your house for the most amount of money in the least amount of time. And let me help you buy your dream home too”.
It's an industry that represents the largest trade association in North America that is in for a really rough ride. This is just my personal opinion. And so I think that if we are professionals in these arenas that require a general skill set, then where do we need to go? And that's why I say hold, hold where you know, that the industry is headed?
I get really tired of people saying that what we're doing is the future of real estate. Because more and more It's now, it’s already here. How do we make sure that we're not greenwashing or well-washing but really staying true to ourselves. How do we talk to that sliver of the population or the businesses that are looking to create these kinds of experiences and places?
Wellness is one of those topics that a lot of particularly commercial developers, for them it's purely about amenities. How do we provide a spa or whatever so that we can call it wellness real estate and then increase our prices?
What is wellness real estate really about?
Matt Morley
Yeah, I'm very much seeing it now as a is any brand or developer needing to go a lot further than just sticking in some some wellness oriented facilities. I think there's been a clear shift post-COVID to a more balanced mental and physical wellness consideration that before I think it was probably more slanted towards purely physical, I think it is now much more 50-50.
In that sense, I think, yes, there are facilities. And essentially, with Biofit design consultancy, I'm delivering those facilities. So it can be anything from a gym space to a yoga room and meditation suite, an indoor basketball court for those facilities that are ticking boxes, but also getting people moving and active, establishing a mind body connection.
Mental and physical health combined
But if that's all it is, it can feel now in a competitive market, such as, for example, student accommodation, which is a boom sector right now in Europe, I'm working with a big brand in the UK with seven or eight in the pipeline.
There you need a complete wellness strategy and a plan around not just even the healthy building but beyond that into how can you provide mental health support? What kind of content do people need within the residential context?
So Gen alphas, what are they going to benefit from in terms of not just having access to wellness facilities, but also access to wellness content and ways for them to be supported in their day to day life.
Healthy building strategies
Then there’s the healthy building movement. And a lot of direction there is coming from the sort of 360 degree healthy building certifications. So obviously, there is the WELL standard, but then also now these micro certifications that are coming in, salami slicing that market to make it more digestible for smaller projects.
For example focusing only on indoor air quality, or active travel, sustainable materials, and so on. So we have the big giants at the top who are trying to give a 360 view but that comes with a hefty price tag for certification, consultancy fees and changes to the project design itself.
Then a second generation of these healthy building standards coming through make it a bit more accessible for developers to take a smaller bite of the pie. They both have roles to play in my view.
Wellness real estate certifications
I think a lot of the thought leadership is coming from those certification schemes that really provide a lot of guidance to the wider industry. I think once you get into it, you can also see how perhaps you can go a bit further in some cases or how you can be creative about combining different credits and benefits and concepts in one space.
I prefer not to take wellness real estate standards as a box ticking exercise or just about racking up credits and scores. My focus in on the occupant experience that we're delivering through design, operations and to a lesser degree MEP-related decisions.
So wellness, real estate, healthy buildings, and that combination of strategy and a plan that goes beyond just delivering spaces to actually considering how they work. and how you can activate them and ensure that they stay active.
Once the building opens, the last thing you want is to be WELL Platinum certified to keep investors happy but with a bunch of white elephant spaces that never get used by the building occupants, because you didn't figure out how easy it was for people to access the wellness lighting, digital content, biophilic sounds, indoor air quality monitor, aromatherapy and so on. A certificate isn’t much good unless it is having a tangible impact on the occupant experience.
There has been this barrage of information and concepts that have broadly fallen into the wellness real estate space, the next phase in that evolution is a synthesis, a focus on what's really making a difference in terms of the wellbeing of users.
Going beyond sustainable real estate for future generations
If we think about the line of sustainable, green and healthy, it's in the name of my podcast, but I think that line is no longer as clear as it was, it's very much two sides of the same coin.
How do you see the concept of regeneration going somehow, beyond established ideas of sustainability and how it can do more good. But what does that really look like in a single family residential context, for example?
Latitude
So there's a fine line to this. There, the concept of good and bad, that's pretty subjective. Like we can all agree that what I think is good, might not be good, from your perspective.
So I think that the simplistic graph that people will see if this is what conventional real estate looks like, you know, and up into the right, it's what green real estate looks like. And this is what sustainability looks like. And this is what regeneration looks like.
It's about doing more good rather than less bad. That's a rallying cry that our brains whenever we're used to really short bursts of media can grasp onto, but I would like to make that distinction that it's not really about doing less bad or more good, but it's about how do we use this building project, to help transform the whole? And it's like an acupuncture point in that regard.
Towards Net Positive real estate for real estate buyers
So it's, it's trying to figure out what you can do to move past this linear equation that I think the industry really likes to put out there of net zero in a regenerative economy. How do we go past that to Net Positive? How can we restore and revitalize to like, we are now really embracing life giving.
The thing that I'm so skeptical about from the well-washing and green washing, it's almost like you need those commercial movers. I tend to be a little bit skeptical, because I understand like having to put together performance for these big projects. It's a formula of how do we increase our rent roll?
Wellness technology in healthy homes
One end of the market is really embracing wellness technology side that is really cool. That's really needed. I wish more and more people had the luxury to really think about indoor air quality and the materials that we're using.
We've commodified our housing. So by the time that I'd say the mainstream population is actually able to get into a home that they can't afford They don't want to, they don't want to know about EMF, they don't want to know about healthy buildings, they are just glad that they have a home to live in. And maybe you can talk about paints that don't have as much fumes in them as another paint line.
So I'm glad that there are those commercial movers that have the money flowing through them to create that market and that awareness. But at the other end, what I've seen as really being able to embrace what this concept of regeneration is, is through food and the regenerative agriculture movement.
More and more people are saying, Why the hell do we have all these lawns? Thank you to Britain for kind of showcasing the English garden to us. Because that concept really took on and now it's just these like huge, toxic monoculture areas that more and more scientists are linking towards auto immune diseases, single cell anemia, cancer is just proliferating children below the age of 17, or 52% of them are, are having to deal with chronic lifelong illnesses that are going to be combating for the rest of their lives.
Our cancer rate has exploded in this country to where, you know, 100 years ago, it was like one and 100 people by the mid 1970s was one and 20. Now it's one and two males are going to be developing cancer within their lifetime. And one in three for females. So marginally better.
But that is the direct correlation with how do we how do we create an environment that's not going to require pesticides, and it's actually going to bring back life because we're trying to encourage pollinators and we're not going to have to worry about what the supermarkets are, are stocking on the shelves and where it's coming from, from 1000s of miles away, or even if it's a local conventional farm that sprays a bunch of crap on it.
Ecological design in farming
More and more people are really embracing this concept around ecological design and permaculture. And I see that being such an amazing mental model for people to understand what regeneration really is. And that's where more and more for the development side of things.
We're seeing ambitious developers take these two models between a farm and particularly regenerative farming and housing, and try to combine them. And they're tricky, but I see a lot of opportunity and in growth in that sector. And I'm curious if if that's going on, within Europe, or the UK, and how the agriculture in the food piece is really informing the projects that you're involved in?
Matt Morley
Yeah, the answer is, yes, it is. I'm seeing more of it happening in the hospitality space. So around rural hotels that combine a short stay residential experience with essentially an agricultural setting where it's sort of farm to table zero kilometers distance from the farm to the food to the kitchen, and it's often hoteliers with well stocked bank accounts, let's put it that way who were able to take the lead.
And we are now starting to see some mixed use real estate or residential led real estate developments to the UK that are adopting a similar approach. People start to think about what life could be like, away from cities, and then you do get into that interesting space of a symbiotic relationship. I think it flows both ways.
Influence of ESG thinking on smaller development projects
There really is a lot to be taken from these larger scale commercial developments where there's ESG funds way up there in the value chain pushing down and cause they insist on playing the game in terms of LEED, and WELL standards obviously.
As it trickles down through the industry to smaller developments, both on the residential side, and then smaller, mixed use developments, often a developer is faced with the reality of an expensive process, not just to go through the certification itself, but to actually implement all of these different requirements is a serious task, and it's not always applicable to smaller pieces, but you can still take elements of it.
The certification itself is great, it gives recognition. But when there isn't a huge ESG fund behind the project, then it's absolutely fine. And I've had this conversation many times now to take the lessons from the thought leaders on the front edge who have the money to do the research projects to do the, in the deep dives, in terms of pulling together the latest data behind this, we can take elements of that and apply them to smaller scale projects, you don't have to do 10 out of 10, it's okay.
So start with two or three. And, and perhaps, you know, further down the line, there's the scope to integrate more and costs come down around certain elements, you know, I'd rather have that conversation with a developer to say, you don't have to be perfect. But please, if you can only do two or three out of 10 right now, let's do that!
You don't need to certify it. All of that can come later or never, just don't be limited by what's happening in the other end of the industry where it is all you know, so much more rigid, it has to be because there's far bigger numbers. So I see it flowing in both directions. And I think that's where I get quite get inspired by what's going on now.
It can be those smaller, more agile developers or hoteliers, just one property, you know, 15-30 keys in a rural estate, but they're doing amazing things. Because that scale, and the independence allows them to act fast, and be agile, and create their own little worlds that can actually teach the bigger players a lot as well.
That's where the magic is happening. If if the two can start to feed off each other, so that they're not disconnected entities at opposite ends of the industry. But rather, it can be this happy interplay of macro and micro, a complete 360 vision of health, wellness and sustainability can feasibly come together.
You've had a whole bunch of guests on your show. I wonder how that experience of connecting with people on the other side of the mic has influenced what you do and how it's pushed your business forward?
Latitude
Yeah, there is a blessing and a curse to talk with the industry leaders from around the world. We had a great architect on out of Egypt and that led me down a really interesting inquiry into what is it like to think about wellness and regeneration within that kind of context.
We've had some interesting guests on from the UK, not too many. But it's great to have you on and then a lot from North America. And the shiny object syndrome with me is real, you know, you see what people are doing? Oh my God, that's really cool. Let me do some of that.
But I think some of the patterns that I really pick up on that I'm with you like, the market size right now is pretty manageable, I would love to see that grow. Not selfishly, just as a matter of fact, like we need it to grow. But the big bottleneck that I'm seeing is that the financing is not quite there yet.
We were talking about agriculture earlier and regenerative agriculture, particularly, we see a lot of ESG funds and sovereign wealth funds that want to get into this kind of land but the funds are so misaligned with the activities and the timelines and and how that works.
ESG funds have their own priorities
They really need the land to appreciate on a commodity basis, they really need tenant farmers that don't have equity in properties, with little say in how it’s run to provide that cash flow for a 10 year fund horizon.
On the residential side, we're really constrained that we have a great product in the United States for a 30 year mortgage that people can access. But outside of that, there's not a lot of additional funds, if you want to transform a landscape.
There's been iteration within the solar panel world and things like that. But it still is pretty inaccessible for people. And, and so really, looking at all these guests and seeing how they're making it work and iterating on their business models, and in really trying to figure out what is the right financing to unlock. Where does the capital come from?
There's a developer friend of ours named Aaron Fairchild, and he runs a really incredible cross laminated timber modular construction company and and he says, you know, we had to create a business that aligned with the capital sources.
I've done something very different. We've created a business that did not align with capital sources. And we've been forced to bootstrap and really figure out what on earth we're talking about. And so I think that's the underlying theme that comes from all these guests - great ideas, high passion, but when the rubber meets the road, how, how do we make it work in a market economy?
I mean, there's glimmers of hope from crowdfunding, and in getting away from just institutional or high net worth individuals, blocked blockchain and web three blows my brains wide open, and I would love more people to help inform me of what the lay of the land is, they are and where that's going, like the tokenization and all that. So that that's the nuggets as well as the bottlenecks that I see.
What about you, when you have some incredible guests on like, I love the diversity of your show, because it's about sustainability. It's about wellness, and you've got like healthy building biologists on..
Matt Morley
Yeah, essentially, I'm talking to businesses, and brands that are contributing to creating greener, healthier spaces. So the parameters are, that they are in some way to do with the built environment. But I think immediately it became clear that focusing for example, just on designers or architects or construction companies, you know, that was really only a very small piece of a far wider concept.
From green walls to smart building technology
If I do something on bio design, or green rooftops or plant suppliers doing green walls that’s always popular but I think it's just as important to look at some of the technology that's coming through around smart building tech, and how different companies are joining the dots between the building performance data and building management.
We've looked at air quality monitors and healthy building standards, like RESET, for example, which was more to do with air, and now they're doing materials and all manner of other things.
The materials theme then led me down a separate path, we spoke to the Parsons Healthy Materials lab out of New York. I spoke to one distributor in the UK called Matter of Stuff who have real specialization in supplying exactly that healthy product for architects and designers.
So that can be more content based things such as biophilic sounds with Open Ear in London, and apps that provide guidance on on meditation and mindfulness such as the team at OPO.
And so it's, it is the broad spectrum, but it's very much informed by my being day in day out, up to my eyeballs in this stuff. And then the reality for anyone working in this wellness real estate, healthy building space, biophilic design consultancy, it's oftentimes about bringing other people to the table, introducing relevant experts when needed. I'm not the expert in biophilic sounds but I know a man who is!
So you end up with a little black book of really talented people who are each absolute experts in their own field. It's much better to be the guy that can bring the right person to the table at the right price at the right time, with the right brief.
Latitude
I love your model, because there's a richness to play in the connector. And in being really transparent that you, you are the connector and the orchestra, the conductor in a way. But you rely upon that network. And that's why I love the medium of podcasts, because it's such an amazing opportunity, especially whenever our podcast started in 2020. I mean, COVID restrictions hit. And you essentially were able to go to these innovative leaders and say, here's a microphone, do you had an opportunity to come on to the show.
So I think we had a little bit of an advantage. Whenever we started the podcast, a latent potential that we have is all these values aligned businesses that are working in the areas where we have change agents, so they are licensed real estate professionals.
And now we're, we're even starting to expand where it is real estate professionals that want to be working in the arena of regenerative real estate, we really encourage them to go out and find those designers and architects and engineers and landscape designers and invite them into our ecosystem directory.
And this is not a money making thing. We don't charge any businesses to be in that that directory. But there is so much that goes on when people are coming in to our website. And they are trying to figure out well, how do I do this with with a property that I own, they can go search those businesses in our directory and, and make connections that we don't even know about, like I'll hear about them months or years later.
And I think that's really cool. And it's also the exact same directory that whenever I get hired on as a consultant for a project, I'm going there. And I'm saying Who do we know, in this region or with this expertise that we can draw from? So I get to, I get to draw from our change agent community and what expertise lies in that. And then I get to draw from our ecosystem directory and what skills are in there. And so I I want to put more emphasis on that going forward. But yeah, I mean, our business model is very similar, like we play the connector role. And I think that's very valuable.
Matt Morley
What about in terms of geography? Do you seeing particular hotspots for regenerative real estate? Within that huge geographic area that is the USA, where are the hotspots?
Latitude
Oh, yeah, I gotta be careful on this one. The need is everywhere. But let's establish that baseline. It trends, a little bit more coastal on Eastern and west coast, that's typically your more progressive leaning states. There's a little bit more money there as well.
Urban areas are always full of potential towards urban regeneration. And that's where thought leaders are, that's where capital is. That's where people are still living even like we've had a lot of migration patterns be disrupted because of COVID. So small areas now are all of a sudden becoming really hot and a real estate market is going up and more people are buying land that they don't really know how to manage.
If I was to kind of do things over, I'd be much more strategic about the markets that we want to get into. There in general, I see a lot of enthusiasm coming out of Australia and I get a lot of inspiration with the design community, particularly out of Australia. A little bit out of New Zealand. Portugal seems to be going through this resurgence of eco villages that I think is really cool. I love the European agro tourism movement, especially like the agriturismo concept out of Italy.
There, there's stuff going on there that kind of percolates into our world. I don't really know what to think about this Latin America expat trend to go create eco villages. I have a pretty high barrier of entry, where I filter those out.
That a difference between sustainable real estate and regenerative real estate and like the green real estate aspect, and the sustainable real estate aspect does a really good job of not thinking too hard about the social dynamics and injustice work. That's really an important factors, as we talked about who owns land and what the access is there. So a bunch of pretty well off, white expats going in moving to Costa Rica to set up there utopian eco village with this new Earth development movement. I don't know about that.
Community values and social justice
Matt Morley
Let's look at that community piece then. I'm going beyond say just a social policy piece to community building, and also some sense of that connection to the land and respect for the land, because that is quite, I see that in something like the Living Future Institute,LFI international design features. Do you see that they are incorporating language around respect for place around culture and regenerative concepts? But other than that, it is often left out?
Diversity, Equity & Inclusion
Latitude
I think we're seeing more diversity, equity and inclusion, thinking, particularly when there's again, ESG players somewhere in the mix. But that idea of, of community of respect for the land and perhaps the heritage of the land, and the ancestors who passed before in that land.
Right now we're going through some pretty high tensions, where we're kind of coming out of the really high tensions around the Black Lives Matter movement in the United States. And I don't want to say that we're past it by any stretch, like I think it's, it's really just beginning and rightly so.
But social justice is such a hot button issue, especially around the indigenous communities as well. And I see a real tension between cultural appropriation and cultural cultural appreciation. So it's how do we have that Earth centric approach to inhabiting place that isn't stealing from other people's cultures, but appreciating that we are indigenous to this planet that we all come from very land based, eco spiritual cultures.
And we're gonna have to kind of re remember our role as human beings that we are a keystone species that create habitat for other species. And that if biodiversity declines and falls that's a detriment to our own fate. And that's why I think that this isn't just a carbon problem that it's a linear equation of how many solar panels can we put on or how much carbon can we put back into our soils?
So I think what I'm really attuning myself to personally is, what does it look like in a market economy where affordability has just run amok? You know, we all want cheaper interest rates to get in to get financing into to homes or development projects. But those that cheap financing also pushes prices up.
Matt Morley
It reminds me of that book The Wayfinders by a Canadian anthropologist called Wade Davis about why ancient wisdom matters in the modern world. And, you know, it's one of those books that I think will just live on my shelves, and hopefully one day I'll pass on to my kids.
Traditional wisdom in real estate
The idea that we should seek a combination of ancient and modern wisdom, rather than all one or the other; there's so much that can still be learned from more traditional cultures. And rather than just completely disregarding those concepts as being outdated and irrelevant, if you can find a way mentally to place it, not on a pedestal, but with equal weight to what's going on around us in this industry around us in real estate, if you can be open minded enough to look at the world through that lens, as well as through the lens of all these various certification schemes and ESG.
Latitude
It's not easy. We're dealing with politics, we're dealing with migration, we're also a really globalized society. So something that might be going on in Syria impacts Europe in a way that we never even thought it impacts the United States.
I love that you brought in Wade Davis, one of my favorite quotes of him because he is Canadian is that living in Canada is like living above the apartment with a meth lab in it. And sometimes it feels like that, like we have a political system in the United States that's so divisive. And it's sometimes hard to make progress.
But Matt, I, I think that we we certainly deserve around to I'd love to make this more of like a regular thing of how do we just check in and see what's going on in Europe and really tracking everything that you're doing with Biofilico and with Green Healthy Places. It's so cool to have that cultural exchange and just different different lenses on things. So this was a really, this is an amazing treat for me. And I'm glad that we're able to come together and create this.